AIBP ASEAN B2B Growth
AIBP ASEAN B2B Growth
TNG Digital: Navigating the Tightrope of Innovation and Risk Management
Guest: Foo Yeong Jin, Chief Risk Officer, Touch 'n Go Digital
In this episode, Mr. Foo Yeong Jin, Chief Risk Officer, Touch 'n Go Digital, emphasises the importance of transparency and proper risk assessments in innovation initiatives. He also discusses the implementation of a governance framework and the shift towards data-driven decision-making.
TNG Digital, established in 2017, operates Malaysia's leading fintech platform, TNG eWallet. Launched in 2018, the eWallet has evolved from toll and transport payments to offer diverse financial services, becoming a preferred payment option for merchants nationwide.
The AIBP ASEAN B2B growth podcast is a series of fireside chats with business leaders in Southeast Asia focused on growth in the region. Topics discussed include business strategy, sales and marketing, enterprise technology and innovation.
Sam:Welcome to today's episode of ASEAN B2B growth podcast. I'm Susan from AIBP, your host for today, where we'll be exploring how to juggle innovation, security and, let's be honest, a little bit of chaos in this rapidly involving digital payment landscape. Joining us today is Mr Foo Yeong Jin, the Chief Risk Officer of TNG Digital, the mastermind behind keeping Malaysia's favorite e-wallet, Touch 'n Go, safe and sound. Quick fact, over 60% of Malaysians are now using E-wallets, maybe, maybe more correct me if I'm wrong Foo, so if you're one of the few still clinging to physical cash, you are practically a digital dinosaur, but seriously managing risk in a world where people pay with their phones more than cash isn't a walk in the park. So today, I assure you, this episode is going to be a mix of insights and hopefully a little bit of fun along the way. Let's jump in. Foo, can I get you to introduce yourself as TNG Digtal to our audience today?
Foo - TNGD:Hi. My name is Foo Yeong Jin, and I'm currently theChief Risk Officer at Touch'n Go Digital. I joined this company in somewhere about May 2018 as a Risk and Data Strategy, and I was appointed as Lead Data in 2020 to lay down the foundation of advanced analytic Data Science and AI in TNGDigital. So about a year ago, I was appointed to to take the Risk Office, because I think back then there was a massive fraud case in the region, right? Not just Malaysia, I think Singapore, Philippines and Indonesia, particularly involved in APK and SMS scam phishing. Back then, that time, the industry is pretty in the bad shape in terms of the fraud prevention and what not, right? So I was appointed back to Risk Office back then to particularly look into this issue, right? So in the Chief Risk Officer, responsibility, actually, cover a multiple risk domain, including first strategy, credit strategy, operational risk and information risk management. So of course, the focus from the risk office is to make sure that the security and equity of our operations and leveraging the data inside and inform to make an informed risk decision and make a right decision to prevent the fraud and risk.
Sam:Thank you. I think we will go deep into what you highlighted earlier on, about the background, but maybe also little bit more about your personal self for our audience. I heard people around you claim that you you actually you don't look or sound like a traditional risk manager, right? What happened to you?
Foo - TNGD:I guess I'm more like a data specialist rather than just a pure Risk Manager, because even though I am a full time banker before, before I joined the FinTech industry, I'm always in the data side of the risk portion of it, right? So I mean in risk, you have a lot of different function, but I'm particularly in the data side of it, right? And I'm also full of tattoo, know, my legs and hands. So it's really like, it's not like a very disciplined kind of perception about a risk manager, which is, I mean, so a lot of people give me the comment that this very contrast, know from what they understand what a risk officer should be, because usually a risk officer is like a very academic, know, talk about processes, talk about controls. But I'm more towards taking calculated risk kind of risk manager, right? Because risk and innovation is, every innovation comes with a risk, right? So if you are too conservative in terms of putting your risk and pressing the things down, and that's where you stop the innovation, right? So I guess that's why people say that it's so different versus a traditional risk officer.
Sam:Interesting. So I think, like for those of you who want to, or may be able to meet Foo in person next time, do take note of the tattoos. I think it's usually covered under your jackets, right? Um, but for the sake of our international audience, maybe Foo, if you could give us also a little bit of overview on TNG Digital history, maybe the background of how this evolved came about, the business model itself.
Foo - TNGD:Okay? So TNG Digital was established in around 2017. It's a joint venture between Malaysia company Touch 'n Go and I believe a lot of Singaporean are familiar with this, right, the payment the toll payment company and the end group. So also, I think most of people know and group as Alipay, which is their app that they are running as a payment in China. And when we set it up, the goal is one to make our app become the Malaysia's leading provider in digital payment and financial services, and empowering Malaysian to pay transect safely and conveniently. Because back then it was like a very cash based transaction, not on the higher ticket side, but in the daily life is mostly cash, right? And ceilings and and we also feel that people are actually hate about, you know, the coins. And it also in the it's not so safe to cash around right, particularly towards the early 20s, 2000s so we are actually inspired by Alipay story, and also want to bring this technology to Malaysia and make Malaysia can spend conveniently and safely. So TNG Digital is the is the operator of Touch 'n Go e-wallet or TNG Wallet, and we are actually the largest and leading FinTech company in Malaysia, with more than 22 million eKYC user and as time goes by, we actually evolve into more than just a payment apps, right? So we are includes a lot of lifestyle and financial services into our platform, so with the aim of really drive the financial empowerment and giving the comprehensive control back to the user and also serve the unserved and underserved market. So in addition to consumer, we also support more than 2 million merchants across Malaysia and also enabling them to have a safer place of doing business, right by removing cash in between and recent years, we actually expand the services beyond Malaysia, so allowing our user to spend more conveniently and secure abroad, right in Singapore, Philippine. And in fact, it's more than 40 countries through our international payment partner, like Alipay plus, and also the visa and and also the government initiative,
Sam:Got it, got it. And I think going into growth and innovation, you mentioned that the previous e-wallet, you are now expanding into lifestyle financial services. And I think the innovation doesn't really stop as you continue to expand on your digital services. Maybe you can share with us a bit on the specific frameworks or methodologies you mentioned about calculated risk, right? How do you balance, as you progress with this innovation, and what's your approach towards risk management? And how do you balance between this?
Foo - TNGD:I guess I won't talk about the very basic of the framework, like first time, second, third line of defense, but I would rather jump a little bit deep in day to day operation, what framework that we are doing in Touch 'n Go Digital.So we actually implement a very simple framework in terms of race in this organization. It's called it risk and reward approach, right? So you just imagine there as a scale, right? There's both side of the scale, right? One is risk, one reward, and the reward doesn't really means that is really a monetary perspective, right? It can be convenience, it can be a coverage. And then the other side obviously is the risk, right? So what we are doing here in the risk department is to balance the scale right. It's just like solving a mathematical equation. There is a x amount of benefit and how much risk I'm willing to take within my risk appetite. So this is the high level the framework that we are actually deployed in TNG Digital. So in addition to that, we also maintain a very open culture. Means that we encouraging every employee in this organization to take a calculated risk within our risk appetite, right within a risk appetite means that obviously non compliance is we have no appetite to non compliance, but above those like black and white rules and and what not, the remaining of the decision are fall into a risk-based decision. And when there is a risk decision, every employee are taking some risk when they make every decision right. So we are encouraging them to take risk and highlight the risk at the same time, and we don't penalize people who taking risk, which is a bit different compared to traditional organization, where risk is a yes, no thing, right? Because when you start implement very harsh risk control in the organization, there's where the blaming culture come into a picture, right? So people start not taking risk, because of not having each other. So instead of doing, going that route, we are doing a very open route. You highlight your risk. We are if we are comfortable, we take the risk and responsible together. We solve the problem together. When something happen, right, as long as we know it so. So with this, we also have another framework to allow every employee to highlight the issue during the development of the product, during the design of the workflow, or during some implementation of of something that you are actively highlight the risk, and this serve as the auditor and every department that related to that particular potential risk, we actually will gather everybody together to solve their risk along the way. Right? So this is a very simple two framework that we are deployed in TNG Digital, which I think is very effective because that actually opening up a lot of the data points to risk department. And one of the thing is that you want to control the risk. You need to understand the risk first. But when you have a very rigid culture that people don't want to talk about risk, then you know you don't know what to control. Actually, right? There is even more dangerous for organization. So we do the other way around. So we don't penalize as long as it's calculated risk.
Sam:Okay, and you actually have a framework on how you determine the calculated risk.
Foo - TNGD:Yes, yes. So, so there will be a proper risk assessment from the domain expert to really quantify the risk from policy level, from regulator level, and from different different perspective, be it operational risk, customer risk, and all angle of the risk right then we arrive into a result of the risk assessment That quantify whether it's high risk or low risk, then we decided the prioritization of the handling of that risk and risk department will see or facilitate the whole journey until the closure, then audit will come into the picture. Then start auditing the solution itself.
Sam:Okay, got it. I think when we talk about risk, right? I'm going off script a bit, but in our conversations with ASEAN enterprises, I think one of the things that people talk about when it comes to risk is about shadow IT. So they're interested to find out how they can transform shadow IT into a next gen technology asset. I was wondering, from your perspective as a Chief Risk Officer, do you see shadow IT as what's the risk level, if you were to calculate this within the organization.
Foo - TNGD:TNG Digital, we encouraging a lot of innovation, right? And in terms of data technology, not just technology department, for example, they are also data department, even risk department, to a certain extent, do have initiative towards that, right? But we who actually running the project, or shadow IT project in that perspective, which I think quite commonly happen in here as well, because we don't really know define a job, scope of IT, or someone really, really only do something so they can do a lot of things, but at least in in TNG Digital, we maintain a high transparency, right? It's not, again, go back to the framework. It's not, it's not about hiding something or not telling something, but everything has to go through proper risk assessment. That is the number one thing in every project it launched, whether it's a IT project or non IT project, or some someone else that running IT- similar project in the other division, right? So everything have a proper governance framework towards it. So I guess my answer is, in short, is that we don't reclassify whether it's IT project or not IT project, but the evidence run freely to deliver the innovative solution, but risk is always welcome or being part of all the initiative, right? And become the hub of everything, whether it's not everybody, that we probably will be the channel to consult it from specific perspective, specific versus security and and control perspective, in terms of the IT stack and what not. So those are the things that we deploy here, so shadow IT, I think the only way to really eliminate the risk is to maintain the openness within the organization right, and then everybody knows that something is happening. Make sure the information. And flow in the government organization is really transparent and and remove all the silo within each division. I think that can solve that shadow IT issue right? Other than that, if you don't allow shadow IT to run, is also in the way to stop the innovation within the organization. So you just need to have a better control around this initiative.
Sam:Understand, understand. Are there any specific tools that you're using, from a tech perspective, to control or govern this initiatives?
Foo - TNGD:Oh, uh, tools that around all this initiative is always go back to risk assessment as a risk assessment as a central control for all,right? Because risk department also serve as a communication channel across multiple division on one initiative. So sometimes, if not all the time, is that all the initiative passing through risk, risk will start to talk to multiple party make sure that everybody was aware of this initiative, even Tech themselves,ourself, and anticipate itself before we can really go into a production or really kick start the project, right? So I guess the best solution on it, or two of it, is re leveraging on some of the assessment in between and the workflow to control the flow of information and make sure that the risk is governed from that perspective.
Sam:Okay, okay. And I think it probably also requires you to have control or make sense of certain type of data to make sure you actually have full visibility on the risk within the innovation initiatives. And maybe you can walk us through the types of data. And also, how do you ensure that this data informs your decision making process, or how do you use it for your risk management or compliance kind of evaluation.
Foo - TNGD:So when you talk about data, we we have been standing I mean, from day one, when we established the organization, we have been paying a lot of attention to collecting any kind of data that exists or generated within the organization other than the traditional database data, which is translational related, pattern related and whatnot, another set of data that we particularly pay attention to is the document based data, right? Historically, I think we have collecting a lot of incident reports that happen within the organization, some self-identified issue that which is also document based, we translate those into usable data form, and all these will go back into the risk assessment itself. Alright? So whenever there is a new product and there's relevant documents that actually relevant to that particular initiative, all this will be reflected out, and then people will start assessing based on that. Because in the E-wallet business, governance and the process, governance and the incident are very critical data points for us to make a lot of decision right? we are, We cannot afford downtime. In short, because, I mean, one of our previous cases before, when there's a downtime, there's a process lapse, causing the system down the way crazy, we are creating a massive jam in the highway, right? So all this information and document, yeah, so it's very important, right from incidents that even a small one, we will use that to correlate to some of the initiative that we plan right then we start to building the control around it, and what is the plan and BCP plan around it to make sure that we are ready, when the crisis happen. Yeah. And of course, sorry, yeah. So the other side of the data we talk about is mostly for fraud control, right? Those are the ones that we actually collecting a lot of a behavioral data, devices data, biometric data, to really strengthen our view for a customer, right? What is you, let's say me Foo, or what is me? How me looks like, or what is my pattern in the ecosystem? Then we are making decision on that kind of data points to make sure that I'm the one performing transaction behind the telephone. And for your section, is about how, how we make sure that you know the team are actually using data to to make decision or risk informed decision. I feel this hard and simple improvement because, as a as a management team, I think one of the easiest thing that we can do is start asking data question, a logical data question, right? Trying to eliminate yourself for so called common sense. And I feel kind of thing when you start asking logical data question, then your team will slowly get into the rhythm of, okay, I need to prepare, I need to review the data. I need to make decision based on data. I need to evaluate the risk and reward for all the initiative that I plan. One, one interesting example is that, you know, the historical BCP plan, or Business Continuity Plan, is to identify critical business system, and it always quite judgmental based, right? Is that I think this is a critical business function. I think that is a critical business function. So one of the interesting thing that we do recently is that, rather than using our feeling or our understanding about E-wallet, what is a critical basic function, why we don't use data to tell us, what is the critical basic function right? So we start crunching the, how significant that particular use case, even we think that there is insignificant, sometimes the usage of it, you know, the people, the number of users that using the use case, can increase the significant level of insignificant use case, or non critical business become a critical business function because of the disruption that you're going to cause to a certain user? So this kind of question, I think, is very helpful in terms of pushing the company, the division, to become a more data centric and using data to make a decision environment so the more a management or senior leader do it, the more the team will go into that kind of thinking process.
Sam:Okay, got it, and because you actually have a lot of different partners right now, we have like 200 merchants that you mentioned earlier on, right from a data consolidation or data, I would say, sharing perspective. Do you cover that as well? Do you look into the risk in sharing data with partners? How do you collect or pass this data across?
Foo - TNGD:Yes, we, under my division, we have a information risk management department, right? So which technically cover the security of the platform, the screen for sharing, the data, privacy, the customer privacy, all these kind of things that we do cover that. So in any kind of collaboration, we are actually subject to the agreement that meet. We us as a solution provider and the user and what we with our partner, right? So all the consent or the security measurement when the data is transmitted, what we can share, what we cannot share, how is our partner security posture in terms of their platform right, or will take into consideration with the most important thing in for us is that we we want to protect the customer data, right? Even customer allow us to do so. The security of the other side of the business is also equally important for us, because it is our customer to begin with.
Sam:Got it. You sound a lot serious when we keep talking about risk management, data, technology part, I try to shift the mood to a bit lively, a bit because a lot of people are talking about AI. A lot of people are being very excited about AI. Your thoughts about it? Does it impact your your division, what you're doing? Are you exploring something interesting within this space?
Foo - TNGD:Well, the data and AI impact the risk office in in a very big way, right? Actually, when we talk about a FinTech company, there is a almost like a part of the business, and, of course, the risk department. In particular, on big data, right? So I think one thing I feel like is quite interesting is that we are we have few 100 transaction per second, right? So, and every transaction, you need to go through risk decision. So let's say if I spend on the merchant, the risk will receive the information. Then I will need to decide, should I approve decline or I just authenticate you as a user? So these kind of things that happen more than few 100 times at the second level. So you know, the big data and AI is really very helpful in terms of of this kind of volume and the velocity, because big data, and then the the capability of processing big data is, is quite easy nowadays, right? And how we can see a user from a different angle, with more and more data points that you can process and one second is, is easier than before right? So you can massively reduce the risk of a transaction. And of course, when you talk about AI, AI now, we are deploying more into modeling a customer, and also in terms of how we authenticate a customer perspective, we don't really interrupt a lot of transaction because we want to preserve the user convenience. So relatively high convenience transition, we probably just be silent in the back, even if passing through the risk engine. So all these decisions are actually decided by AI based on our historical data and what is potentially for and what is potentially not fraud, to start to decide right then we go to the authentication part of it. We do have this facial recognition and one of these AI at the back to really matching your face with the one that that you perform the eKYC. So those are things are are really change or reshape the way of doing risk significantly.
Sam:Cool, and I think the last part, I think, I want to draw you back to maybe your banker's hat, because you've walked through a lot of use cases, and what you're trying out different new things and modeling, right? What are some of the financial metrics that you use to evaluate these successes, because at the end of the day, the business itself, they have to be an outcome, right? Are there certain indicators you look out for?
Foo - TNGD:They are there are many risks that we cover from risk office, right? I mean from natural risk all the way to security risk. So I think in terms of financial metrics, pretty much same as any traditional organization. We do look at PPT, we do get ROI investment, then we also look at cost of fraud, or cost of credit control, or controls, right? So we, with the skill that we have, we trying to push our control cost of fraud prevention to the lowest possible with the initiative like a big data and AI and what you mentioned just now, right? The cost of managing this kind of risk should be as low as possible while achieving your best outcome through the technology, right? And one thing is that we also pay a lot of attention is the cost of serving. Right? Traditionally, why a certain segment became unserved or underserved is because the cost of serving to a particular segment is relatively high. Right? Give you an example, the unbanked segment. Why banks are failed to serve unbanked segment? I don't think bank actually fail it because the cost of serving for them is very hard with the traditional brick and and models. Banks model, right? It doesn't allow them to actually really serve the unbanked, underserved. From data perspective, from processing perspective. Well, FinTech into this territory is that we are able to managing a large scale of volume with a relatively cheaper price, because we can even out the cost by technology, right? So the cost of serving become a critical key measurement for us for that perspective. So we want to serve as much as possible, but not at the cost of how traditional organization is running. Alright, that's how we can go into unbank and reserve bank to help them to go into financial system. And also we have a lot of data to really model out the people that we can help in terms of financial inclusion, and also the data that we help them to avoid the risk. So the cost of serving is another angle that we really pay attention into
Sam:Interesting to find out about that, because, I think, from a cost to self perspective, there are figures that you tag along to each of this metrics that you mentioned.
Foo - TNGD:You mean the figure in TNG Digital
Sam:in general.
Foo - TNGD:We don't, actually, we kind of didn't benchmark it right. But we have our our original value. We always benchmark towards the original amount that we are, the cost of serving as we incur in our organization. Then we optimize along the way, because I don't think you really can benchmark it to a certain extent. But one interesting point is that we, we, we roughly know how much it cost for a sales force, let's say, get credit card. Uh. From the public, right? So there is a course that traditional bank paid to the staff, the staff paid to the agents, then all these freebies come along. So those are the costs that we will benchmark to. Well, I don't think I should disclose that course too much, but I think probably a few angles that help you get it,
Sam:Got it, got it. And I think right now, moving, actually, this brings me to something I'm very personally curious about, right? How do you, How does the Chief Risk Officer and Chief Financial Officer typically work together, and were there others within your organization or your experience perspective, right? Are there certain sets of like, I would say, areas that you usually sit down together to explore or argue or debate about?
Foo - TNGD:I think maybe I just had a few debates with our CFO, see a day or days ago, right? So, so I think it's very constructive debate. We always talk about how we measure something right? So when there is a business opportunity, how we put the control right, and why is the framework we be able to deploy? Those are the things that we typically talk about. Because this, I think the two division are handling things or look at things a bit differently, right? But what I feel lucky about this organization is also in terms of risk control, everything online, right? So I'm in judging of controlling the process perspective, and he is more on managing the numbers perspective, right? So there are some overlap in between, but not so much a disagreement, I would say, right, in this organization, at least. And, and the risk control is always the number one priority to this. And I don't see finance office in this organization actually. They actually encouraging us to do a lot more controls right to certain processes, be it a counterparty risk, because counterparty risk impacting the business opportunity. If we, let's say we classify a counterparty risk is too high, and they really want to take the business in from CFO perspective, right? So we always get fundamental ground. But the framework is really what we are looking for, where we actually really balance the risk and reward, like what I talk about in the very first question that you asked, right? So as long as the risk and reward part is aligned and there are some flexibility preserved within the agreed risk appetite, I think, yeah, that's just how it work.
Sam:Yeah, I think we also see quite a number of organizations nowadays,the risk and the finance team are kind of like converge, especially in like the Philippines, there are many CFO who also wear CRO hat. That's why I was thinking sometimes you kind of have a little bit of, like, cognitive dissonance within this roles. But yeah, I guess,
Foo - TNGD:Yeah, because I think one of the main job of the risk officer is also financial risk of the organization, right, which is a finance portion of it. But I think converging is also have a risk by itself, to be very honest, right? Because you don't really want one party to really handle both side of the coins, right, so that it can be either you are very pro to take risk because of business outcome as a CFO, or you are too scared to take risk because you are a CRO right? So I, my personal opinion, is that I think converging have its own risk, right, and at this moment in this organization, I don't see the benefit of converging with both, because both are actually it's like a check and balance thing most of the time,
Sam:right? Good, good, good. So I think we've like, gone through quite a number of like, your different perspective with regards to the innovation side, and also your personal opinion about how in the organization, the risk management plus innovation balance, right? So looking ahead, what do you see, or what are you what do you think is like one of the up and coming biggest trends, especially for the digital wallet industry or the FinTech industry in Malaysia or in the region. How are you viewing this? Or how are you like getting ready or prepared for this trend or this change?
Foo - TNGD:uh, Southeast Asia, I think, is one of the fastest growing e-wallet or FinTech industry. I mean, I think it's driven by a lot of unbanked and underserved bank. Sorry,unbanked and underserved population within the region, right? We don't really see it in Singapore, because Singapore is highly bankable population. It's a bit different. But the rest of the Southeast Asia, there is really, I think, to a certain extent, this is going to overtake traditional master and visa payment card kind of transaction because of the really small amount and high velocity transaction that we're putting in cash itself, right? The risk of that is that sometimes we do see that the population are not really ready, right? Because just to share a little bit about the view that I have from all the data points that we gather from all the fraud reports and what not. A lot of the fraud, right is actually not protecting your personal data well, right? Or rather, don't have the sense of how to protect your phone, because there is, now, is the most important device, right? Your banking account inside, your payment is inside, but that part of the knowledge is still a bit lack of this part of the region, right? So I think it going to take some times to really get the public to really understand how important for them to protect their personal data, the authentication data, but in general, and judging from the fraud rate that we have, is not much so much of a big concern. But it's just that the continued evolving of the modus operandi of the foster it become quite concerning, and how the public is not ready, from that perspective, right? Because sometimes it's just like the cat and mouse kind of thing. So we keep changing, keep changing each other, right? And and the game become more and more difficult, because the other side of the people, or the fraudster, per se, they are also using technology, right? So and here we are, a lot of times previously we actually meet up by our own data itself. So cross industry prevention is is not ready yet back then, but now I also see that a lot of central bank and central government actually pushing out the industry right initiative, like we like one of the initiative we just participated in Malaysia is the National Fraud portal. So those allow the information exchange across the industry to have a better protection to the user while the user is learning how to protect their own personal data along the journey. And other than that, I think e-wallet adoption and and the use case of E-wallet is is probably just one way traffic to become more and more right and to be more disruptive into a traditional organization in the market. So of course, with the risk, along with that, I think for us, we also need to prepare the market or the public better in terms of education, in terms of telling people how to protect your device, how to protect yourself from this kind of the threat that is going to impose to you, because convenience and risks are, the more convenience you get, the more risk you have, right? And we just have to try our best to minimize it.
Sam:Thank you. I think we have the last four minutes for this episode. I promise you this will be the last question, so I'm going to keep it a little bit open ended. Maybe if you could share with us one of your last comments, some of the thoughts that you think you want our audience to take away from from today's episode, and maybe a little bit of like TNG aspirations, or your aspirations for FinTech in the region itself.
Foo - TNGD:I think, from a officer perspective, right? I think people need to really start to spend a little bit of time to understand how security and how protecting your personal data works in this whole technology world, right? Especially when you talk about AI, big data or in place, I think people need to start relearn and learn and understand again how to managing your own data right, and sometimes you don't even know data,right?and how to protect yourself through the authentication they are pushing to you. Because I think people tend to take it a bit lightly when you talk about E-wallet, when you talk about payment system, right? People don't take it as serious as a bank account, but it is as serious as a bank account, right? And they are you may or you unknowingly facilitating fraud that you don't even know, right? So a lot of things that I think, I really want the audience to pay a lot of attention, to really understand this part of the things, because it's, it's really. We can do all the protection that that we want to do, and we can protect you but, but in the end of the day is also, if you disclose the things out. I mean, it's very hard for us to to prevent, you know? So, so those are things that I think, I guess, the public really need to understand how these whole technology works for their own good, right?
Sam:Got it. Thank you very much for spending your time with us. So I think hopefully we give our audience a little bit of insights into TNG and also the role of Chief Risk Officer in the organization or even regionally as well. I would like to thank full for your time. Hopefully, next time we see you in person and then you allow us to, kind of like have a look at your tattoos or introduce us your CFO so that we can have more conversation around FinTech in the region. Thank you for your time. Yeah, thank you.
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