AIBP ASEAN B2B Growth
AIBP ASEAN B2B Growth
OCBC Indonesia: Navigating Singapore and Indonesia's Innovation Ecosystem
In this episode, we are joined by Altona Widjaja, Head of Digital and Payment Solutions, OCBC Indonesia, a seasoned OCBC leader who has traversed the digital landscapes of Singapore and Indonesia. Through his unique journey from programmer to innovation strategist, we explore the nuanced world of banking transformation, market dynamics, and the evolving mindset that drives financial innovation in Southeast Asia.
OCBC Bank, established in 1932, is Singapore's longest-standing bank. As of March 2025, its market capitalisation stands at approximately US$57.2 billion, positioning it among Southeast Asia's leading financial institutions. In Indonesia, OCBC operates through its subsidiary, OCBC Indonesia, in which it holds an 85% stake. This strategic relationship underscores OCBC's commitment to serving the Indonesian market and supporting its economic growth
Innovation takes many forms, and in a market like Singapore, even incremental changes can create a ripple effect. However, different markets have different priorities, and what works in one may not translate seamlessly into another.
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:In Singapore, like the market is small, right? And when the market is small, I think the focus is on a few incremental or innovative solution will kind of like, can create the hype, basically, right? And to the customer, maybe we become valuable, right? If we take example, maybe in the past with this savings, I don't know whether you know, OCBC Singapore has a sailing school, right? That's one part of small innovation that that kind of like propel one of the value proposition for OCBC in Singapore, right? Whereby, in Indonesia, maybe something like that can be, can be viewed as innovative, but it doesn't always translate to direct contribution to the revenue of the business, right? Because I think in Indonesia, it's a country that is a little bit messy, right? So I think they appreciate, they don't appreciate efficiency too much, right, but they appreciate more in terms of, how can I make more money?
AIBP:The real value of innovation lies in its ability to shift mindsets, to re imagine what is possible. Some ideas thrive, while others fade away. But each step forward, whether a success or failure, shapes the future of business.
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:It's proven that some of the concepts are great, but also some of the concept concept didn't make business sense, basically, right? But I think the positive angle, and the positive side of it, of the whole thing, is that the whole startup movement in Singapore or Indonesia actually helped everybody to reimagine finance, whether or not some startup made it, or whether or not some startup didn't make it, that's like business by nature, right? Some business will survive, some business will not survive.
AIBP:What fuels lasting innovation? Is it a breakthrough idea, a bold vision, or something deeper true innovation isn't just about launching new concepts. It's about building a culture that sustains them.
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:So by doing that, I know that the culture of innovation can only happen. Number one, if the person has the ownership to learn right. Number two, the person have the right sources of information. Then number three, then you can she can apply it basically in the daily work, so that it will give more value to her as employee as well.
AIBP:In today's conversation, we explore the evolving nature of innovation in Southeast Asia, how businesses navigate different market dynamics, the role of experimentation and the mindset shifts that shape the future of finance. Please enjoy this episode from the AIBP ASEAN B2B Growth podcast.
AIBP Intro:The AIBP ASEAN B2B Growth podcast is a series of fireside chats with business leaders in Southeast Asia focused on growth in the region. Topics discussed and include business strategy, sales and marketing, enterprise, technology and innovation.
Irza Suprapto:Hello everyone, and welcome to this episode of the ASEAN B2B Growth podcast, where we sit down with leaders who are driving growth and innovation within their organizations here in Southeast Asia. Today, we have a very special guest who is dialing in out of his Jakarta office, Pak Altona Widjaja, who is part of the OCBC group. He has a very interesting background, because he is natively Indonesian, but spent a large part of his time in Singapore, both during the formative years, going to school in Singapore as well as starting his career in Singapore. He's still with the same entity right now, but he's moved back to Indonesia, I believe, since 2018 but I will leave Altona to briefly introduce himself and the firm he works with, which is OCBC. Pak.
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:Alright. Thank you. Hi, my name is Altona. I work for OCBC for over 15 years, basically, but I spend time in Singapore, in Singapore office for about 12 years before I moved to Indonesia for about six years now. My various roles range from technology, operations strategy, and in recent times, innovation and digital as is in my area, and I also do a little bit of product development for the merchant and the business banking side of things as well. Yeah, yeah.
Irza Suprapto:So as I mentioned earlier, I. Alton did his university in Singapore at the Nanyang Technology University. And I believe you are an engineering grad, computer engineering grad, Pak Altona.
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:Yeah, that's right. So I did computer engineering as a undergraduate in NTU, and I did my master's degree in knowledge engineering in NUS, yeah.
Irza Suprapto:Okay, but if you can, maybe you could give us a brief timeline you know about the roles you have held at OCBC, let's rewind, turn back time, and you know when you started, what you started doing, and how the trajectory has been across your, did you say 15 plus years at the bank?
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:Yeah, that's right. That's right. So after I graduated from uni, right, I went to OCBC to work as a engineer, actually, right, a programmer. Because, of course, since I graduated from Computer Engineering, being, you know, lacking in knowledge of what to do, right? Basically, the first job as a programmer, I take it basically right. I spent about about one and a half years as a IT engineer, focusing on building reports, basically. And then from there, actually, I wanted to resign, right? Oh, really, yeah, because it is a bit of a thankless job, actually, right? If those of you guys hearing in it, you will know, I mean, right? So you gotta keep everything running by the same time you want to do announcements. So what I did last time was small. My milking hour is, like, on the, you know, nine to five is, is, you know, five fighting, right? And after that, I gotta do the projects, right? So I think it's, it's very taxing, right? So that's why I felt that no, enough, enough is enough, right? But I think thankfully, I met a very good boss and mentor right in my organization. He actually identified me early on identifying I'm Indonesian, right? And I work in OCBC, Singapore, and I think he had a plan to actually go to Indonesia to take up some role, basically, right when I wanted to resign, because it's a shared office right? Share office space. So this person was from Operation, Operation Technology, naturally, usually shared offices, same division. Usually, they called me up and said, I heard you resigning right. Then he actually stopped me and and saying that, why not you come work for me? Lah, right? And he actually provide me options, right? Asking me, which department do I want to join under his team? I felt that that's a very, very big gesture for Yeah, I know right, that that really changed, changed the way I see leadership and the way I also conduct my own team as well today. That created a big impact to me, right? That that's actual person that really cares about what you want, right, rather than this assigning task, and that's it, right? So then, because of that, I spent about, I think, about three years in operations, right? Still doing projects, improvement and all that. And that's also the opportunity, the first time I know OCBC entity in Indonesia, right? And that's kind of like my first experience working in Indonesia, right? Because before that Indonesia, I was just growing up and go to school and all that, which is very, very different, obviously, yeah, I did a few projects there. Here, basically now in Indonesia, about about three, three. After three years, I moved to and there's another gesture that this particular mentor and boss give me is that he identified that the consumer banking group is running some strategic project, right? And they actually offer me to go over there, right, to go out of his team and go to another team. Basically, alright, which, which to do the similar law in Indonesia. So yeah, and he made it happen, right? So he actually transmit transforming over to the team, to the strategic office, basically right for Indonesia consumer strategy business. And then I spent another two years there. So in total, before I came here, I had about three to four years experience in terms of traveling in and out Singapore, right to Jakarta, obviously, then from there, then I moved to the innovation role, basically, sorry, before the MO, a strategic role, first for a year, helping my COO to run a shop, lah. Basically because he got, like he had 11 business units at that point of time. So I was there to help him to manage these things. Then from there, he said, I'm creating an innovation unit. Why don't you go into it basically right together with my boss at that time, prana Ho, set of digital so I did that, the innovation bit, in terms of, we call it the open world at that time, the time that a mess, was also pushing a lot on innovations for banking, basically, right? And from there, I spent about two, two years plus over there, and then the Indonesia opportunity came up, right? It's another strategic transformation project that they're going to run. So I put up my hand to kind of like, say that I see big opportunity for digital Indonesia, much, much bigger than what we can have in Singapore, and that's why I move over here for six years. And yeah, it's been, it's been a great journey for me. Yeah, over here.
Irza Suprapto:So you are native Indonesian who again, spent your time in Singapore, studying, getting tertiary education, and then working in OCBC as a programmer at first, but then eventually you moved into roles where you were traveling between Singapore and Indonesia as well, and finally made that move. I believe you moved in 2018 to full time in Indonesia. So, yeah, if I may ask you, you know, if you mentioned you grew up just going to school, were you? Are you from Jakarta?
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:I am from Jakarta.
Irza Suprapto:Okay, so Jakarta is obviously something you're very, very familiar with, but looking at it from that perspective, right? You have the OCBC operations out of Singapore, and then also after your move for six years in Indonesia. What would you say, especially since you ran that the Open Vault, which was, I think that started around 2016, 2017. Am I correct in OCBC? What's the difference between the innovation landscapes in Indonesia versus, say, in Singapore.
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:I think in Singapore, like the market is small, right? And when the market is small, I think the focus is on a few incremental or innovative solution will kind of like, can create the hype, basically, right? And to the customer, maybe you become valuable, right? If we take example, maybe in the past, with this life saving school, I don't know whether you know, OCBC Singapore has a savings goal, right? That's one part of small innovation that that kind of like propel one of the value proposition for OCBC in Singapore, right? Whereby, in Indonesia, maybe something like that can be, can be us innovative, but it doesn't always translate to direct contribution to the revenue of the business, right? Because I think in Indonesia, it's a country that is a little bit messy, right? So I think they appreciate, they don't appreciate efficiency too much, right, but they appreciate more in terms of, how can I make more money, right? And it happens also in terms of that's for personal it happens also in the business landscape. So many accounting platforms being used in Singapore, right? But in Indonesia is almost non-existent, right, especially for the very, very small business, right? Yeah. So I think that that is kind of like the difference in terms of the value that they put in innovation is different, right? And that also creates a difference in terms of, how can we think about innovation in the respective country? Yeah.
Irza Suprapto:for our guests who are listening, I think more than half of our the people listening to our podcast actually outside of Southeast Asia. To give you some context, and I like doing this all over again, Singapore has a population of roughly, what, 5, 6 million people, where OCBC is one of the three local banks, whereas in Indonesia, it's what, 280 million people now, yeah, right. Now, that's right. You have a lot of different banks, and GDP per capita in Singapore is somewhere in the 80 to$90,000 whereas in Indonesia it's something like $4,000 yeah. So it's completely different markets. Size of the markets are completely different as well. And I think that put some context into what Altona was saying earlier. So in terms of innovation in, let's say, in Indonesia, and obviously, you're at a different stage of your career now. What are the things that you are seeing which actually are driving change? Because I remember you said sometime last year, right? Like banks are like, what a tanker, whereas startups are more like speed boats, right? So what? What kind of changes within the banking landscape in Indonesia, do you think are going to or are driving change?
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:Okay, I think definitely one of the key, key factor for Indonesia is always been the regulation, right? Banking, yes. But also in general, I give an example last time before this, we call it better, JS, right? Or in Singapore, CPF, so basically a pen pension, yeah, pension. It's like a mechanism whereby pension scheme, whereby the employees need to, kind of like, contribute, right to the to the pension scheme. Before that rule was being that law was being passed, right? Nobody uses a HR system, right? But after that, that rule, that law is out. Now everybody need HR system to, kind of like, correctly calculate the amount that, how you split the the amount from the your which you mentioned, basically, right? So, so that is kind of like one of the changes that that happens and it impacts to banks like us as well, because that means it can be a value add for us to if the calculation of the payroll to include those components as well, for example, that can be an additional service, because it's a pain point that was created by having this new regulations, basically, right? So I think that's one factor. The second factor is obviously the the change in terms of, like, the market demand and behavior, right? QR, right. For example, initially was a heavy start, actually, right? Initially, was very challenging for them to be able to to accept a mode of payment of QR, right? And I think this, this push on QR today, as is being accepted quite well in big cities, right? But it's still very, still quite challenging for a lot of the small, small cities, right? And this is because the the behavior right of the market itself, basically in in the biggest cities, maybe people already get paid their salary to to a banking system, right, money transfers and all that. But maybe in a very small city whereby when you do certain job, you still get paid by cash, right? And that and that that dictate the the kind of like, the innovation that's required to be able to kind of like, address the needs of the people, right? So that's number two, I think lastly is, is is more towards the the availability of capital, or companies that are willing to spend money to be able to change the behavior of the customer, basically, right? Why? Why? The, if I take the same QR example again, is that in Singapore, maybe, as I recall, there's not much promotion, right? Or, like rebates when you pay through pay now or QR, basically, right? But in Indonesia, it's like in the past, like even credit card, right? Credit card, you can get 50% discount on restaurants, right? Yeah, and, and like, for, for, for Imani, for QR, last time it can be 30% rebate, no cap, right? So, literally, 30% rebate, right? And that obviously changed the way people behave, right? I also just met with the large e commerce player today, saying that, if you notice, our E-commerce no longer have promotion, right? Whereby, in the past, you always get this kind of rebate, the kind of rebate, and they started to add a lot more costs and fees over there. But consumer behavior didn't change, right? People are still buying from the same platform, because it's been their lifestyle for maybe now 9 years. Yeah, so I think, I think, I think that that is definitely a driving factor for for landscape in terms of digital discipline, yeah,
Irza Suprapto:Yeah. What I find interesting, I was just in Jakarta two weeks ago, and then I think there was this Grab, Grab Pay. So if you use we don't have, I mean, foreigners, we don't have local bank credit cards. I see promotions for all BCA Monday credit cards, but I don't have a BCA Monday credit card. And what I found interesting was, in the last restaurant I went, they had a pay with grab pay, and then you get, like you mentioned, up to 30 to 50% off. And then that was so easy to do, right? Because you just scan the QR code, and then you can pay from your foreign credit correct. And that was great for me.
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:So even though now they are smarter.
Irza Suprapto:Yeah, if you can just do that, right. Okay, but you know, talking about, like, selling out, like, like you mentioned, right? You mentioned, around, like, the pension scheme, and whereby, if you get, if you get paid by a bank, and then the value added value service that OCBC can do is, like, whereby you help with the calculations for, for these kind of, you know, products, so to speak, for your, I'm guessing, for Corporate Customers. These are things you build in house. You have, do you have a large development team in Indonesia?
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:Yeah. So I think Indonesia, OCBC has always been a built shop, right? Meaning we, we built a lot of things ourselves. We do have some systems, obviously, they are we buy, yeah, but largely we build, we say, big team, relatively mid size lah, probably, right, not so much big because, because there's a lot of other big banks that has much, much larger it, team, basically, right? As an estimate, we have about 500 over IT people, basically, yeah, so that's not too big, basically, but I think there's a lot of innovation that you have done in terms of, like, providing a lot more value add than just pure banking. Basically, we call it beyond banking. Basically right to be able to provide the customer more value add, rather than providing them with just a better interest rate, for example. Yeah, so we're not trying to compete just on pricing, but we want, we want that, that holistic solution, to be able to help our customer grow with us, basically, yeah,
Irza Suprapto:That's quite interesting, because in the consumer space, actually, it's, all about like customer acquisition costs, right? How much does it cost? Higher interest rates, or you mentioned rebates to provide value? I think that that that value proposition, or the way you market the additional value, might be a little bit difficult from traditional marketing means which? Which brings me to my next point, right? When, when you think about working with at external vendors for for the technologies of services that you purchase or that you work with. You also ran the what was that the Open vault in Singapore, where you work with a lot of startups, and I understand in Indonesia as well, there's what's it called OCBC venture, which is the venture investment arm of OCBC, when you look at that right, when you work with technology vendors all the way from startups to large technology vendors, what do you think the differences are? And I know most, most small companies will be very, very happy to be able to work with OCBC on most of their products. But do you see a difference in the importance to, you know, building out your technology capabilities so that you are capable of offering this, you know, additional value to your customers?
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:Yeah, I think is this maybe some differentiation between startup and the big provider, probably right, or established provider, right? If you say, take the example of a CRM system, for example, right? So that's that might not be a startup, but it's also a system that has well established process that's being used by multiple company. It's not just banks, like basically, right, which obviously we get the benefit of the right structure, the right the right information format, and so on and so on, right? So basically, if you talk about that, then, yeah, the value add is a lot more, not just buying the system, but also some of the best practice that that exists in the processes. Right? Though, sometime, obviously us as banks or maybe as individual, also, we always think that whatever we have is the right one, right? And then, and then, usually, banks like to customize the process to what they want, rather than actually adopting the best practice, right? That's another different issue for startups, though. I during the Open Vault days, right? There's this big belief that all the products are fantastic, yeah, so I give a bit of contrarian view here, but actually, as we go through the years, right, it's proven that some of the concepts are great, but also some of the concept, concept didn't make business sense, basically, right? So I think, but I think the positive angle, and the positive side of it, of the whole thing, is that the whole startup movement in Singapore or Indonesia actually help everybody to reimagine finance, yeah, whether or not some startup made it, or whether or not some startup didn't make it, that's that's like business by nature, right? Some business will survive. Some business will survive. But I think it helped a lot of the senior management and the IC to reimagine how banking and finance will look like for the customers. And I think the winner is the customers, right? Because then they get better service. They get, you know, a lot more efficient, a lot more value innovation that's being given by the by the bank to the customers. Basically, right? So I think startup today I will not generally use them as a kind of like the main vendor, right, but more to like as complimentary right, to say, for example, there's this startup that's kind of like providing an AI agent to be able to call the customers right to kind of like, either explain some product proposition or some simple things, basically right? That is the kind of players that probably will work. But it's not direct integration. It's more of using them as a as a sales channel or sales tool, basically right. But to have a startup to kind of like, go in and can help us with loan systems, for example, right? I think, to me, right now, that's not the stance that we like, like, basically, even though last time today is, obviously, I'm one of the biggest proponent for startup lah, right, yeah, but I think, I think the
Irza Suprapto:Go ahead. Sorry, I was saying, I think the startup ecosystem, it's been start stock, finally, for the startup ecosystem here in Southeast Asia, especially in Indonesia and Singapore, I think these two markets have been very, very interesting, and we see a lot of these open innovation programs right by you mentioned what you call the large tankers, a lot of the conglomerates, a lot of the banks, are doing open innovation programs. But as you correctly pointed out, I think there's, it's, it's reaching a point where I think it maybe it's maturity whereby we realize that, you know, working directly or running open innovation programs might not be the best way to run certain things. And I actually see a lot of large enterprises changing their view about how they actually will work with startups. And I think that's exactly what you said as well, right? Yeah. So again, going back.
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:if I can just put one comment on the Open Innovation Program part, right? I think that for for an industry, or for a company that has been existing for, you know, multiple years, like 10s of years and all that, maybe an open innovation program, if the budget allows, is still good, right? More from the point of view, but it doesn't have to be a large scale, right? I think the point is, how can you get senior management level to be able to take a look right, and see the details and talk to the founders? Because that's the part that probably can open up the mind of the of the people, right? So maybe not an open innovation program, but more of like an exchange of values and information, so that actually, and especially if the the senior management are open minded, like NF growth mindset to kind of like, want to learn from other industry, rather than just looking at how they do things, day in, day out. Yeah, so that's my take one.
Irza Suprapto:perfect point, which, which brings me to exactly what I wanted to speak about next, this idea of, like, culture of innovation, and how you know that's embedded within a traditional or legacy organization, right? So it was interesting that you mentioned in OCBC, Indonesia, you see yourself as a built shop. That's obviously very, very different when, when you are building things versus you're maintaining things, I think the mindset is completely different. So within your team itself, how do you actually build out this culture of innovation, and how do you measure, is there a metric that you use to measure innovation internally?
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:Yeah, very good question. Actually, we will explore that many, many times, right? In the past, at least now we we don't really measure in terms of, how do I measure the level of culture of innovation? Right? What I measure is how much money can can this innovation generate? Right? But okay, he said, I think, and, and I think the best way to do it is, number one, give a lot of exposure, right? Because human beings should be naturally, generally, more happier when they learn new things, like basically, against the keen sense of learning, like basically, right? So what I try to do is I try to give more exposure to the team, whether is it through a WhatsApp group, whether is it through emails, and so I think consultants reports, right, like aibp is also important, right, so that people can understand what's happening in other markets, what's happening around, around the landscape beyond not just always banking, right? Can be other things. I think that's the key of innovation, is the exposure of information, right? And make it interesting so that they're willing to absorb that. Number two is teach them the how to think in parallel. Out right? So that whatever they read, they they need to able to know how to apply it, right in the in their work, right? Like, like, if they, if they see certain news and all that, and then they can apply it. And they, they feel that it's not adding value to to what they do, then generally they, they will not be willing to learn more, right? But once they, once they realize that, oh yeah, actually, we can do this right, then, then they will be the person will be happier and will continue learning. I go one perfect example. I got one staff that was initially she came from an Operations Unit, yeah, and, and we, I created a program like a innovation competition, basically internally right then this person actually have a very good growth mindset in terms of, she always participate in every competition, and sometimes she win number one, sometimes she's just top 10 and all that. Right? So it's been, it was going on for two, three years, for example, right? Then ultimately, an opportunity came. There's an opening in my shop, so I actually hired her over to my side from the operations team. And what she told me is that I think the difference between her last time doing a Bau right, like an in Operations Unit, obviously, you in in branch, especially, right? You are very busy every day. You don't have time to see new things and all that. I think when she came over, she see a lot of new things, and I think that that help her to be a more innovative person, right? Because then she can think of all the different angles of how you're supposed to do, maybe a job a right? So, so that that is really a perfect example, because it's not the person is not innovative, right? I think everybody can be innovative. All you need is just a bit of creativity and willingness to learn basically right and to read, especially to read. So by doing that, I know that the culture of innovation can only happen. Number one, if the person has the ownership to learn right. Number two, the person have the right sources of information so that then, number three, then she can, she can apply it basically in in the daily work, so that it will give more value to her as an employee as well. Yeah,
Irza Suprapto:That's interesting. So so in your team, for example, and again, because it is in Indonesia, like if people are looking to which is exactly what you did right in OCBC when you wanted to resign, and then you moved to a different team, so that in within OCBC that's quite fluid. People can request to move within the different departments, they can request to like change, and it's, it's quite open
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:upon the agreement of both sides lah. Yeah.
Irza Suprapto:Okay, that's a great thing to have, because I think traditionally in banks, it's quite hard, right? Previously, at least when I used to work in a bank, it was difficult to move between divisions. But I understand they have different management associate programs now as well, which I think
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:precisely, yeah. And I think, sorry, just to add on. And I think I benefited a lot from from that, that change of roles, right? That that also helped me to be able to think differently, right? Rather than if I stay in the same role over multiple years, obviously, yeah, exactly.
Irza Suprapto:And I think that change of roles, and for you as well, change of country, right? There's a different Yeah, precisely, has made you stay in OCBC for a very long time. Which younger people nowadays, they stay in one company for one year, and they think that's a long time already, right?
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:I mean, if the job has is continued to be challenging and engage you, then I don't see any reason why you need to change the job.
Irza Suprapto:Yeah, I'm with you on that. I'm completely with you on that. Okay, but with Next, we'll go to the next part, which is, you know, largely around, you know, I think you've had the benefit of spending a long time in Singapore, which is, you know, a global financial hub, and you've spent the last six years in Indonesia, which is one of the fastest growing economies, one of the largest economies globally as well. So I think you have very unique perspective of what makes Southeast Asia, just covering like these two markets, I think Indonesia makes up something close to 40% of total population in Southeast Asia and roughly equally 40% of total GDP as well when you look forward, you know, using both your perspective living in Singapore as well as in Indonesia. What what are you most excited about when it comes to forward looking or like the future of this part of the world, this region, both Singapore and Indonesia? What are you most excited about? Which segments are you was excited about?
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:I think, to me, is the small business, right? I think that is, will be, will be one of the next big thing for this part of the world, right? I think the digitization for personal finance, it was very fast, right, with the introduction of mobile banking and so many things that we can do today and change the behavior of of us as a consumer, as a personal finance people to to kind of like, can do so many things on mobile banking, basically, right? That has not happened too much for for the business side, yeah. But more and more so we see right in terms of POS and maybe Singapore is kind of like a little bit ahead. But again, Singapore market structure is very different than than, like the Thailand, the Vietnam, the Philippines and Indonesia. Right. In Indonesia, I think the the acceptance of pure digital for businesses, it's not happening yet, basically, right? And I think that's going to be exciting future, because possibly the value that can be created will be a lot more, right. I mean, already we see E-commerce, obviously, right, like marketplaces, that has helped a lot of merchants to be able to generate more money, right, more value, also for the for the country, but in terms of the banking part of it, yeah, that needs a little bit more work. In terms of, like, having a lot more giving, giving a lot more intelligence, like so called virtual CFO, basically, right to the businesses to be able to better manage their businesses. And I think especially for Indonesia, I'm not sure about the other region, the literacy of handling business finance is also still, still very, very low, right at the moment, Indonesia, right? We, as a bank, we conduct financial fitness studies, right? And I think the last, I think last year was the first year we did it, also for the business side, right? So I think it was about 30% if I'm not wrong, right in terms of the score, yeah. So we see the comparative this year, right? When we run the study again, whether or not did it increase or not, right? But I think as a bank, we have mandate, and we have push and vision to be able to educate as much as customer as possible, right? For the business side to be able to we do also for consumer, obviously, but because, I think the I'm talking about the business side, because that's the segment I'm most excited about, the excited about to see the growth and more values being created over there, yeah.
Irza Suprapto:Okay, that's quite interesting. So, so what you are saying effectively is that OCBC in Indonesia can cover, let's say, a small business much better, because, let's say a small business in Singapore, they would have different payroll HR accounting software already embedded into their way of doing things, whereas in Indonesia, because, I mean, OCBC is capable of building a lot of capabilities or products which can value at you are capable of providing more value to them across different requirements of the Companies. Okay, that's quite interesting.
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:As an example, we that's like, I think, okay, as an example, we actually have a HR system, right? We have an invoicing tool as well. We have a loyalty system as well that actually customers can use to run their businesses, basically, right? And I think that's the start of it. And we want to see how we can, kind of, like, integrate all of this to power, right? The people that are doing the business further in the future? Yeah,
Irza Suprapto:That's very, very interesting. And I think that's very valuable to a lot of startups, right? Because then they don't have to look for multiple vendors to do a lot of different things, especially in Indonesia, where the culture is small shops, war on, war rooms and all can actually, would actually require such value that's being provided. All right, but I think with that, I think I've taken enough of your time. I think we've run over the time that was allocated. Thank you very much for spending time. You know we will be speaking with you again throughout all our activities later in this year. And yeah, we look forward to all of your insights.
altona widjaja - OCBC ID:Awesome. Thank you so much, Irza.
Irza Suprapto:Thank you Pak Altona.
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